Brothers of the Wheel MC

BOTW MC Message Board => Tech Talk => Topic started by: charles on November 11, 2017, 02:27:00 PM

Title: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on November 11, 2017, 02:27:00 PM
  About 3 weeks ago after the DMV inspection (wrecked bike) an retitled ,I took about a 20 mile ride (try out) I noticed my dash makeing a noise from vibration I was feeling in the bike ,when I let off the gas the vibration was 3-4 times worse ,I had just put a new tire on the back of the bike dunlop D402 > I took the bike about a 3 mile ride before the new tire was put on ,there was no vibration . When I got back home from the try out there was oil all over the front saddle bag ,side cover ,exhaust pipe ,muffler and up on the seat ,from the air cleaner . The oil was yellow looking on the top of the cam chest but looked like regular oil every where else . This engine was built a couple years ago an the bike put together to run wheels and all with out fenders and ect... before I started with the paint nitemare . Its been started often 2 winters an summers ,this could happen over 1 winter and most likely does . I put the head breather up grade in that came with the gasket kit , I (suspect) the condensation had the head breathers pluged up AND the condensation washing off of the inside of the valve covers had the oil return holes  pluged up and had the inside of the valve cover flooded with oil ,obviously part of it was running down the push rod tubes and from heat ,hot oil and air pressure inside the motor the breathers finally unpluged and oil an all came out into the air cleaner . Some of the yellow inside of the air filter was as thick as gravy ,but by the next day had melted to liquid ,probably soaked up some clean oil . I called several places includeing harley no one knew what the yellow was  LOLOL only S&S knew . I keep my bike in a building thats not heated unless Im out there doing some thing ,everyone knows as the temperature lowers and raises the out side of the engine coats completely with water . Does all oil draw moisture ,dont know .. I had lucas 20-50 syn.MC.oil in this one obviously it does and turns yellow ,royal purple turns green .Dont know but a friend of mine said all the high dollar oils do this . NOW ,after starting often an heating up ,then a 20 mile maybe 25 ,there was still condensation inside the valve cover when I removed it an took the breathers apart to clean it all out ,yes you need to all the way to the air cleaner . Did it do the same in the cam chest cover or engine block my guess is yes at least in the cam cover . If you get any kind of discolor in your air cleaner its condensation even tan,brown or white . You might want to think about this when spring rolls around ,this can rust the parts inside of the engine and damage the bearings . I used (WITH THE INTAKE BRACKET BREATHER BOLT REMOVED YOU DONT WANT TO BLOW THE ROCKER PLATE O-RING) and the head breather apart ,I kept putting some WD 40 down in the head breather passage to the air cleaner let it soak a little then blow it out with the air hose several times ,just dont let the WD40 run down in the engine . You can take a regular bolt (SHORT FOR TIGHT PLACES OR LONG) an use the edge corner of a file an cut a V in the in the side of the bolt threads ,the depth of the threads at the end of the bolt an tapered off up the threads part of the way,works just like a tap to clean bolt hole threads make sure you start the bolt correctly to clean,an clean the V out each time a little air to get any loose out of the bottom of the bolt hole . I use the old aluminum (origional) breathers to put back the rubber umbrella valve is appx. 1/16" higher than the up grade breather ,I used the rubber umbrella's and filter material out of the up grade in the origional breathers . I got some gasket material felpro 3187  1/16" thick ,made a gasket for the bottom piece of the breather to the rocker plate with no gasket sealer ,I used permatex high tack 80062 on the breather lid with no gasket ,put a thin coat on EACH surface allow to dry 30 minutes then align correctly before contacting the 2 pieces ,dont mash together ,let the bolts do that ,high tack use to be used to put split VW engine blocks together with no gasket and they didnt leak . Theres very little clearence between the breathers and valve cover ,the valve cover wouldnt allow a 1/8" spacer and leave the filter material about 3/16" or so spaceing (below the bottom) of the rubber umbrella screen or it will ooze oil up threw the screen and on out to the air cleaner.One other thing it is possible with a high vol oil pump ,to get to much oil in the valve cover  .  Before I start this engine agin ,Im going to remove and drain the engine oil filter and put it back it hasnt been run any , and allow the oil pan to drain good also , and put a conventional (NON SYN) oil in, pennzoil GT 25-50   (they also make 20-50 both are detergent oils and claim high temperature) and run it some to rinse the syn out and clean out . I'll decide later what Im going to use in it ,there will be no more SYN I can tell you that ,ot seems to like water/moisture . I wonder how many have this problem and dont know it ,and maybe ruining there engine..........
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on November 13, 2017, 01:45:11 PM
 When you get a new tire ,usually most people dont inspect it that closely ,its a new tire ,right . From now on I will ,after removeing the new tire I just got ,because of the excessive vibration (dunlop D402 MU85 B16 SW/nww) . Inside the tire there was a slightly raised circle appx. 1 an a 1/4" diameter with a appx. 3/8" diameter slightly sunk in place in the center of the circle ,looked like a vulcanized repair section ,there was also a slightly raised hump/bulge(looked like a seam) going across the tread ,side to side inside the tire . At the tire bead on the side where the outside lip/edge of the wheel sets aginst the tire ,there was a seam going all the way around the tire bead on 1 side ,as if a tire skin had been put on the tire.There was a very small rubber void air bubble on the outside of the tire ,and I have pictures of all . Tires are suppose to be inspected for defects when there made ,defects removed and slight blimishes sold as blims at a lesser price . I paid for a new tire (stated new on website),not a blim or a defect that could get you hurt or killed . Dunlop is part of goodyear if you didnt know . If you have a little more material -seam,hump/bulge ,extra rubber,ect going across the tread  in 1 place inside the tire ,whats going to happen every time that spot comes around and reshapes as it slightly flattens aginst the hard top/road  ?  My old tire HAS NO places any where inside the tire its consistantly smooth and even all the way inside and did not vibrate . In an attempt to not get another bad D402 ,I ask to get a replacement with  the origional american elite HD (not with the 1,2,3,ect) MU85 B16 SW #32AE23  . Ive been into it with amazon ,powersport superstore and dunlop MC tires .its the blame game ,P.S.S.>we cant replace it with another tire amazon wont let us it has to be the same tire, its been 30 days we cant refund your money so you can reorder the the other tire(HAS IT IN STOCK FOR SALE ON THERE WEBSITE)  , I offered to pay ANY difference between the 2 tires . Amazon >It has to be replaced with the same tire . Dunlop MC tires > Was ask the same questions  > Im out of the 32AE23 ,I'll send you another D402 , ALL he had to do was pick up the phone an call anyone he supplies tires to, that had it in stock, and have it sent to me . SEE its the customer's fault they allowed an sent out ,and sold a defective tire ,they seem to think they will decide how your money is spent ,not you . Reguardless how you look at it ,any agreement we had , was broke when I received a defective product . P.S.S. received the tire this past thursday ,havent sent out a replacement yet ,after >We will get you 1 right out as soon as we receive the one from you . I've already told P.S.S. the tire will be inspected with UPS present ,any defects photoed ,an any defects it will not be accepted from UPS . I had my belt deflection set correctly ,after the try out ,the belt was looser from the vibration . The only reason Im telling you guys this ,is what you can get into ,and if you get a vibration it may not be your bike ,it could be a poorly made tire .  One reason I like the dunlop D402 is it has HEAVY SIDE WALLS that could possibly help from wrecking when getting a flat .
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on November 20, 2017, 01:28:32 PM
  This may interest some of you guys , Most people know harley wheel bearings are too stiff/restrictive to use the axel and try to get any where near an accurate static balance of a tire an wheel . Many static balancers have bearing grease in the bearings ,you can have more accurate results if you wash out all the grease an use light weight oil ,wd40 ,3 in 1 oil ect...sling out excess oil after rolling the bearing.Wash out an reoil each time if it layed around a while unused .WD40 will help keep the bearings from rusting . This guy uses a 1/2" rod with bearings to fit(make sure its straight ) SCUDMAN balanceing>(https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=8WHk  SPZJ3fI ) Remove the spaces from the link . The next guy gets even more detailed on harley rear (Marion Blair)>(https://www.youtube.   com/watch?v=vkO_LCE   dknU) With scudman's way all you need is a straight piece of 1/2"  rod ,2 bearings to fit the rod ,2 level surfaces(level the rod) with groves or another way of holding the bearings from moveing on the flat surface's . If you had 2 old wheel bearings that fit your bike ,you might remove the seals ,wash out all the grease, and oil ,and use your axel the same way(bearing on each side of the wheel makeing sure the belt adjuster cam, can turn all the way around freely on the rear wheel) as above .If you used the axel on the rear ,you could also put the belt pulley on and balance it with the wheel an tire and mark the pulley and bowl where you balanced them . You might want to get weights for motorcycles most are smaller and will fit the narrow flat ledge of the wheel with out hanging over the edge that helps them come off , an use tape to stick on the weights till you know what it takes to balance the wheel (Ive been looking for a combination of 1/4 & 1/8 weights) ,put half of the weight aligned evenly on each side of the wheel when you know the exact weight to balance the wheel, its important to clean with alcohol or, before sticking on the weights mashing them good an tight . Some put what ever color the wheel is masking tape over the weights to help keep them from comeing off . Your wheel bearings ,forks ,trans ,shocks an all wear faster from vibration........
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on November 20, 2017, 01:48:55 PM
  Make sure you clean the bearings surfaces good ,no anti seize ,dirt ,grease ect,,,,on the surfaces before you put the rod threw the bearings to balance .
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on November 23, 2017, 01:54:10 PM
  In the early 70's when service (gas) stations worked on vehicles ,sold an fixed tires,washed cars ,ect.... The station I worked at a while had a very good bubble balancer . And before you attempt to balance a tire you need to know, its not uncommon for a tire to have more than 1 heavy spot or a long heavy spot ,focus on the heaviest spot first, then the other, if any . AND REMEMBER water inside the tire even a few drops will cause balanceing problems ,use a rag to dampen the tire an wheel with water when mounting the tire ,dont use soap on aluminum wheels . Wipe the tread off if you rolled it on the floor before balanceing and all water off of the tire an wheel ,it all makes a difference . Tire makeing has came a long way so they say ,I still see people with broke belts thumping as they go by and tires still have to be balanced and at times rebalanced after they wear a while and some times the balanceing weights come off . There is a spacer between the 2 wheel bearings, and even if there wasnt, its important to have a STRAIGHT rod to balance with, any hump in the rod wont allow the tire to roll correctly while balanceing when the hump on the rod comes to the top side . You can use the narrow edge of a frameing square with the rod centered on, an roll the rod to check if its straight or use a aluminum frameing level surface or t-square ,it helps to have a light at the back side while checking . Hardware galvanized rod isnt straight . You might find a good piece of stainless steel rod that is straight . 18" long , is plenty long enough . I have cvo wheels and theres no flat ledge to put weights on at the spokes ,the spokes are a steep slope an the weights will just fly off,you could break down the tire an move the tire around the wheel a little and maybe get the heavy spot lined up with the slot/flat ledge to put weights on ,but how many times will it take breaking it down . The heavy spot on mine wasnt in the center of the spoke ,it took six -1/4 oz weights ,I put 2 weights at the heavy side of the spoke an 1 on the other side of the spoke on the valve side and the same amount of weight on the other side of the wheel lined up with each other . Appx. a forth of the way around the wheel from the weights I put on, I had another spot that took one -1/4 oz weight . I only had 1/4 weights, you need 1/8 also ,I found some small L .-1/4 weights a local tire shop ,you can cut the 1/4 for smaller weight ,but if you mess up the glue on the stick on part it will not stay on the wheel . I got a couple 1/2" inside diameter bearings from a starter an alternator rebuild shop ,washed out all the grease out an used wd40 an left the rubber seals off while I was useing them ,3 in 1 oil would work also . Rolling about 5 inches at a time an stop all the way around the tire,letting go of it without causeing it to roll, to see if the wheel would set still by its self ,if it trys to roll either direction ,hold the tire with a finger get a hold of the rod and turn the rod about a half turn an try it agin ,I had to keep checking if the rod was causeing it to roll or if the weight needed adjusted because the rod wasnt completely straight . I balanced my belt pulley also,it took one-1/4 oz weight ,I had to sand the rough texture paint smooth at the under side edge of the pulley where it was flat ,the weight wont stay stuck to the rough paint  and it was the pulley so I used super glue up onto the weight to help keep the weight there . They make duck tape several colors ,if you suspect your wheel weights may come off , and you can get the tape glue off .......I used masking tape to stick the weights on till I knew how much and had the tire balanced ,You have to wash the place your going to stick the wheel weight good with alcohol or , ........
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on December 06, 2017, 01:52:57 PM
 After flushing my motor once (conventional cheap 20-50 pro line oil)-heating it up several times and letting it soak each time,I decided to take a short easy ride or 2 with the second flush cause the oil after heating it up a couple times didnt look half as yellow/tan as it did ,it was unbelieveable how much of that crap was in there ,no more lucas 20-50 MC full syn. or syn for me ! I dont know about all syn oil ,but that crap is a moisture  magnet . This past saturday decided to take a short easy ride to Bear's brother , since the oil was looking better and change oil when I got back home . I was about a mile from starting up the mountain ,looked down and the oil pressure was exactly half way between 0 and 32 on the oil pressure gauge at about 65 mph ,eased off some and pulled off at the foot of the mountain ,after a road side intense sermon ,no oil leaks ,let it cool a while , almost 0 idle pressure and I took it slow an easy back home with the same half way between oil pressure as above. After  a few burnt fingers the manuel oil pressure gauge showed almost 25 at idle and almost 50 a little above 3000 rpm .I have a new fueling plus high vol. oil pump ,new axtel oil bypass valve and new HD oil sender on the bike ,cold starts it completely pegs the oil pressure gauge ,so I suspected the condensation or something else had pluged the oil sender or it went bad , but I still knew something else was wrong even with the pressure the manuel gauge was showing . After the condensation problem and then this , and remembering the very small oil passages in the cam plate , I decided I had no choice but check the oil system ,so into the cam chest . Now this motor has many start ups over 2 years keeping it oiled up inside an ect....while I was finishing it  and only 50 or less road miles on it . Last nite I found the problem , RED SHIFT DUEL PISTON CAM CHAIN TENTIONERS ,there was a piece of plastic stuck to the oil pressure relief valve seat holding the relief valve open . I have a high vol. oil pump , but ,you would think they would make the shoe (plastic material ) that rides aginst the chain out of high quality material ,both shoes were ate up , the inside shoe was 3 times more ate up (deep) ,another piece of plastic was in the spacer ring that sets aginst the roll pin of the axtell relief valve . By looking at the wear on the  tentioner shoes its what you might see on 70,000 miles ,the stock shoes that came out of this motor didnt have a forth of the wear on them at 36,000 miles ,but ,it didnt have a high vol . pump , I wouldnt use the red shift tentioners if I was useing a stock oil pump after seeing this !  Im putting the stock oil pump back in ,with the stock relief valve ,Im going to try and seat the relief valve a little with some valve grinding compound (WASHING SEVERAL TIMES AFTERWARDS AND BLOWING OUT WITH THE AIR HOSE) and use the after market spacer to tighten the relief valve spring and the stock chain tentioners are going back in also , my problems may not be over yet with the plastic pieces . Some people try to stretch the oil pressure relief valve spring ,sure you can stretch it ,but your wasteing your time ,in a couple days a week or so it will be back like it was ,knew a guy that had a MG the stretched his relief valve spring about every 2 weeks to get oil pressure instead of just getting a new spring , even spring steel fatigue's  from heat and wear ,just like the springs on your vehicle get weaker over time . I also didnt care much for the way the oil pressure acted at times with the axtell oil pressure by pass relief valve is why Im putting the stock valve back in and theres no way to know how much , or how deep the oil gets in the cam chest where the valve dumps all the relief valve oil ,it could cause foaming and if it gets very deep it could go threw the crank bearing an cause sumping in the crank shaft side ,it may not do that with a stock pump ,dont know ,but there is a chance with a high vol. pump . After reading up some more on the oil system lately and what I found is why Im changeing things back............
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: Bassman on December 06, 2017, 02:32:02 PM
The new tensioner upgrade seems good to me.
Has Teflon (or something like it) shoes, like cars have been using for years.
Those red ones are a piece of crap.
I also am using an S/S gear driving cam in another bike that worked good.
The problem with gear driven cams, the tolerance for crank TIR (total indicated runout) is .003 max.
Also, you have to change gears to set the correct backlash, if that is off.
Tolerances that are off a little will make the cam louder.

If you have more than .003 TIR, the Harley tensioner kit upgrade is the best way to go.

BTW: I run Royal Purple 20-50 synthetic with zero problems, two of my bikes have over 100,000 miles and no smoke.
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on December 06, 2017, 04:32:41 PM
  I was going to go with gear cams ,and after reading about what you just stated Bassman ,I decided to go with chain cams . I had my crank balanced ,welded ,bearings and the lock and set up on 3 thousandths end play ,but , sooner or later it will get run out from heat ,fatigue ,ect..... So I just went with the chain ,but I did use roller rockers to make a little less stress on the chain and on the valve guides . There's many people that have good luck useing the gear cams . Its too bad I didnt read up more on this oil system's particulars  and those tentioners before ,I could have saved myself some time an money . If your going to race your bike and ect.....That completely different than what Im talking about , I put this together with the intent of a dependable strong cruiser ,I like a little juice if I use it or not........
Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: Bassman on December 06, 2017, 09:19:45 PM
I was referring to this cam chain tensioner update.
They are hydraulic, came stock in 2007 and later.


https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-hydraulic-tensioner---oil-pump-upgrade

Title: Re: Oil condensation an a couple other things
Post by: charles on December 31, 2017, 11:30:29 AM
  For those who would rather not buy the complete harley cam chain tensioner assembly , you can get this fueling -nylon with teflon replacement pad/shoe #8078 .  Im fixing my stock cam plate with the Baisley precission ground bypass plunger(zippers ) and the LMR-002 oil pressure relief valve spring . There's a you tube video (pFI2Kd6D2Q8) by (Fat Head Cycles) that shows you a pressure check on the stock cam plate and how bad the stock oil pressure relief valve leaks pressure ,and shows you how to seat the baisley plunger in the stock cam plate so it will seal . I chose the LMR-002 relief spring because it should let the relief valve open at appx. 40 psi. ,instead of the usual 30 to possibly 35 psi . Also rocker arm shafts can rock causeing a pecking sound ,like lifter peck , low and leaking oil pressure can cause lifter peck . WORE lifter bores can cause lifter peck from loss of oil pressure to the lifter . The lifter bore's in these engine blocks are ALUMINUM and will not stand (without wareing) large/wide duration cams , especially with heavier/stronger valve springs for very long without becomeing wore and loose around the lifter's , this isnt a problem in car engines with cast iron ,forged an ect.... engine blocks . If you see a small amount of light scaring around the bottom of your lifters(bottom of the lifter bore area >on the lifter from the lifter bore) you will have to decide if its from low oil pressure ,the cam, and/or springs or both . You guy's decide for yourself.........